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for a minute and I'm again talking with

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dr. Jeff [\h__\h] from Rice University

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author of this new very interesting book

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we're talking about secret body which

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you can see there on the screen and we

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just had a really interesting chat about

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really how bravely autobiographical this

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book is and some of the things that he

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covers in it so definitely check that

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out but next Jeff what I want to talk

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about you know again but I say brave I

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mean people get a sense for what I mean

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when you know the book is just says hey

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here's the problems with non self

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reflective Christians and again you know

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pretty much got this right out of your

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book so if you would if you feel up to

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it it's kind of throwing you right into

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the fire here but again let's let's talk

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about some of the tough stuff and if you

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wouldn't mind maybe reading this excerpt

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from the book and then we can talk a

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little bit about that is that okay yeah

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sure yeah so this this is the from a

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chapter in the book in which I'm

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struggling with essentially being an

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intellectual in our modern or

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contemporary American culture a

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university culture and rural America and

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goes like this I go home to rural

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Nebraska every year for decades now I've

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been deeply struck if not emotionally

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wounded by the immense moral abyss that

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separates my university community from

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the general culture of rural America I

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am thinking of practices and ideals like

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self reflexivity historical

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consciousness religious pluralism gender

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equity racial and sexual diversity

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environmental sustainability the

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importance of privilege empirical data

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and thoughtful debate over received

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opinion and blind propaganda and above

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all the secular public space that

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guarantees both freedom of and from

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religion okay you're punching pretty

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hard there do you want to elaborate it

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well I mean there's so much there we

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could elaborate on Alex those things I

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just read off those are in any basic

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mission statement or value statement of

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any University or College in the country

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for the most part certainly not all of

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them but I would say most of them share

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all of those values and yet those are

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the same mountain they profess to share

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those values I am highly highly doubtful

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that they really do but okay I'm with

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you the tuitions I've worked in half I

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mean those we've nurture and defend

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those values but those are those same

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values are demeaned as as liberal I mean

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liberal has become a bad word in in our

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public culture I even though it was a

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perfectly fine word 20 or 30 years ago

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you know I mean we still speak of a

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liberal arts education

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none of us and higher education think

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that's a bad thing but that is a bad

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thing to huge swaths of rural America

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and so I'm trying to put my finger on

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that problem on that that that rip right

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through American culture and in I'm not

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sure I'm not sure the rip is is is where

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you're putting it I mean it certainly is

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I don't want to kind of get to you know

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just provocative for the sake of being

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provocative because we get it you know

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we get what you're saying in terms of

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the funding Christians right and like

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the crazy Christians and get all that

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but we get that there's a lot of crazy

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atheists out there and there's a lot of

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crazy liberals out there and any side

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can go and get a little video of the

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craziness of the other side and show it

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out there and all of a sudden you know

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it's just this kind of division let me

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tell you a little story from my life you

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know just just last weekend I attended

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this funeral ceremony for kind of this

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soccer friend so my daughter plays

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soccer and a soccer dad you know but I

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know pretty well a really nice guy

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like ting I go to this guy's funeral

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ceremony celebration of life ceremony at

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this Evangelical Church in Southern

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California so you live in the buckle of

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the Bible Belt

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I live in liberal liberal Southern

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California and I'm as evangelical church

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and it is full first of all I mean

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you're stunned by the fact that they can

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fill up a church with four hundred

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people for somebody these days you know

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that doesn't happen on a Saturday

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afternoon and they go through this guys

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and it's so it's an amazing life

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it's a quietly amazing life of little

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things that he's done and helped people

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and the the the two gay soccer moms who

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he initially meets by writing this

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letter saying hey you know proposition

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nine is coming out for gay marriage and

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we should we should really rally against

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this you know and it's terrible and they

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kind of gently take offense and this guy

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completely goes inside and says you know

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what I'm wrong I'm wrong about that you

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are really great people and I need to

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re-examine what I believe and he turns

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out to be this tremendous friend like he

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was to so many people and he helps these

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people out constantly place like they're

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number one handy man like perfect uncle

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that just does everything for him the

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guy lived an amazing life and I'm

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sitting in this church listening to a

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lot of evangelical [\h__\h] that I can

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barely get through about empty tomb and

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about your we better come over to our

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side and all the rest is o'clock crap

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but I'm struck by the fact that this guy

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through all that found a way to live and

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grow his spirituality in a way that we

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all would look at and go that's a

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beautiful thing so I don't know you know

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I get the anger at the crazy Christians

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and the non self-reflective thing

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but I just think the other side of that

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that liberal side the community that

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you're at is so filled with ridiculous

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atheists I am a biological robot in a

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meaningless universe kind of non

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thinkers non self-reflective people as

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well and I wonder which is worse because

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my buddy in the evangelical church he

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got it and he got something out of that

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experience that even though I don't know

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how he did it and I couldn't there's

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something there that I don't think he

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could have gotten in the Academy yeah

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well you're using a lot of words I would

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never use Alex no I don't talk about

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crazy Christians anywhere in the book no

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no I do that's me

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and I get I get called on for Christian

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bashing but to me it's just you got to

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look for the truth you know so but

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because Jesus isn't historical Jesus

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real how much of that is a cold thing

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all that but I'm sorry please continue

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yeah I think you're drew I think what

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you just articulated is is frankly part

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of the problem it's it's a false

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equivalency you can always find examples

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on any side that are extreme and easy to

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make fun of but I I think it's an

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equivalency to point to the kind of far

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right-wing propaganda that really

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controls so much of our public

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conversation today and higher education

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which is really about having

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conversations and yes there are excess

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excessive moments in higher education

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but it's really not the same thing at

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all

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so I I don't see that frankly from where

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I see I think we need a lot more

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calmness and and and and we need to talk

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about these things and that's what I'm

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trying to do in the book I'm trying to

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call out where I think the the split is

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and I'm calling on intellectuals like

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myself to not just talk to each other

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but to go out into the public culture

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and talk to their families talk to the

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public culture about what it is we do in

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in the higher education which i think is

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really still the answer

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and I think this lack of civil discourse

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and this this constant demonizing of the

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other is is precisely what we don't do